So the Big bang started with an infinitesimal explosion right? And we are creating one on earth? Perhaps that is how the universe was created. By us! How do we know that our bang is not going to be the end loop and beginning loop of the big bang. So we might be about to start the universe to loop back to this point.

Dear Scientists,

Philadelphia and other cities are falling apart and filled with poor people. Please, when you're done with this project, do something about it.

Thanks.

TheAdlerian.

Are there any environmentalists working on the project.. how much of greenhouse gas has this project already contributed to ?

Seems to me that you could accomplish a LOT of less-exotic and more "useful" science by having 100, $200 million projects.

$20 billion for a paragraph of material in a physics text seems a bit extreme.

> less-exotic and more "useful" science by
> having 100, $200 million projects.

Or we could spend money teaching simple math to grown adults.

(20 million x 100 is *NOT* 200 billion.)

And the top way that the LHC will blow your mind:

STAND INSIDE WHEN IT'S FIRED.

>(20 million x 100 is *NOT* 200 billion.)

Umm... I don't think you understand.
The poster was trying to say, instead on one project that cost $20 Billion ($20,000,000,000), that we could do 100 projects that cost $200 million each ($200,000,000). In which case his math is correct. (100 x 200,000,000 = 20,000,000,000)

Though, I don't agree. I believe this project will help the human race by leaps and bounds in understanding the universe, and in return, lead to scientific breakthroughs that will help all of mankind.

besides, it's f-ing cool.

Resistance is futile. The end is nigh.

Wow, talk about short-sighted comments. Yes, there are poor people. (And there are WAY poorer people than those in Philly fer chrissakes). But guess what? If it weren't for previous dabblings in "exotic" science, we never would have discovered the electromagnetic force. We'd all be living in dark huts still and fighting over resources we only had primitive means of extracting.

More advanced tech = better standards of living. Science means making the unknown known. It benefits everyone, and is sometimes expensive.

So quit bitching about the price, and be happy that SOMEone on earth is still doing real science. The Bush admin and his fuckwit cronies are hell-bent on destroying Americas ability to conduct real science. Better hope that trend doesn't continue.

in laymans terms, this this pwns ass, so stfu all you fearin noobs. this isnt gonna cause some fucking huge explosion. and to all you guys that bitch about the cost, please be quiet. think about how much money is spent on the iraq war by bush, its far more than 20 billion dollars, and america isnt fucked too bad yet. overall, this thing will halp us with t3h sciences, and makes pplz with the labcoats have much giggles.

2012 is an auspicious time to have SLHC online. This is the "end" of the Mayan Calender (see calleman.com) and the beginning of a period where humans are predicted to finish the climb out of the 9? underworlds to reach some kind of galactic awareness of where man fits into the cosmos. Most appropriate :)
I am another you. Hal

I also heard of that 2012 doomsday stuff too, I think it was on the history channel. I wonder if the SLHC is gonna be the next step forward or the last step for us. haha

Wow, this is the greatest experiment in the history of mankind.

But still, some of you think this is wasted money. I'm dumbfounded. The U.S. could have built at least 20 LHC instead of going to war... Nobody's whining about that. Imagine the advancements in science if all the world's government money would be spend wisely!

Dusty,

Your post is filled with nothing.

You, like so many, have no idea what this project could do (prove me wrong), but you have full confidence that it will do something, and not just something, but something great.

Why?

I'll tell you why. It's because the word "scientist" is a heuristic for amazingness is some people's minds. However, scientists are people to and they have self-interest and if given ten dollars or 20 billion will spend it on their own interests. A project like this a a great hustle due to its Misty nature and I predict will prove useless.

Meanwhile, whatever degree you apply to poorness the situation still sucks.

Maybe it will rip open a parallel dimension and we'll get a Cloverfield monster or a bunch of those monsters from The Mist.

Funny that nobody is protesting against the tens of thousands of nuclear warheads, hoarded by Russia, USA, and a lot of other countries. Something wich actually has the capability to destroy the world many times over.

Stop bitching about the price for science and poor people in USA.

Maybe you should take a look at the cost of the iraqi war:
[url]http://zfacts.com/p/447.html[/url]

How many poor people can you save with that amount of money?

No. 6 is incorrect, since the biggest problem with string theory is that it cannot be proven.

Dearest Adlerian,

Don't you think that instead of purchasing access to the internet in order to chastise other people for being excited or dare I say interested in the technological advancement of the human race those poor people in Philly should be using what little money they have for their economic short comings. I mean a monthly bill of the cheapest ISP before tax is 5 meals off the $.99 menu at McDonald's. Oh wait that's right Philly doesn't have fast food I forgot.

You can find cern webcams here

http://www.easyout.co.uk/webcam-cern/

Anonymous,

I've spent the last twenty years working in social services helping poor people, so I took your suggestion retroactively.

Over the years I've seen nothing like the money spent on the useless Mars projects, or this crazy expensive one, to revitalize American cities. Almost all the cities, let alone small towns, in the US are broken. That leads to crime, drug use, a poor business environment, and overall degraded public morale.

All that is somehow ok to ignore while fantasy projects which will satisfy a micro-minority, whether successful, or not, gets billions.

It's odd, it's pointless, and is some kind of civilizational symptom.

It reminds me of Egypt sending out huge amounts of men to work on the pyramids. They were a useless project and the only marker for a dead civilization. One that didn't have good priorities. There's lots of examples like that.

Pyramids are awesome! Whatever happened to good ole slave labor? That's it! Eureka! Why not get those poor folks in Philly to build the SLHC? That way, it doesn't cost too much, and those poor suckers will get a free trip to Europe!

Theadlerian,

Having come from a welfare family I can say that most of the poor people I met were either drug addicts or lazy/lethargic people. Before you think I'm stereotyping I do believe "some" people are worthy of social services; however, this number is about 1/3 of those poor people now wandering the big cities for handouts. I suggest you read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" to get a perspective of what a socialist/People's State society creates.
As for the LHC, this is a great step forward in human achievement & understanding the Nature around us. Many technologies have come from exploring the atom (Read "The God Particle" by Dick Teresi & Leon Lederman); ergo, it negates arguments that such experiments are pointless

boo ayn rand

Anon, Dusty, and Adlerian

Please all of you stop. It's ridiculous to get on here and post all this garbage. Obviously you all are smart and old enough to be more adult about all this. I agree with Dusty and Anon that science is needed to create better lives I mean if it weren't for pointless projects things such as the light bulb or even electricity would have never been invented. I also whole heartedly agree with you, Ad, there is a problem in the American cities and all over the world when it comes to degradation. I live in the states but have so only for about three years now. One of the first thing I noticed was the dirty, run down state of some of the major cities. Here's where I disagree so please none of you take it as an attack to your character or intelligence. Dusty/Anon I doubt that the as of yet unknown experiment results will truly help society within a reasonable time-line for our (worldly) problems at hand if they can a all. And $20 billion is perhaps a little over zealous. But that $20 billion is how much the entire machine cost not how much one country,out of sixty, has given towards it. Now Ad unfortunately I have to disagree with the Egypt comment and that these types of projects are pointless. I was lucky enough to spend the last 8 years living in Cairo and I can assure you the culture and cities of Egypt are far from dead. Though they may be monuments of a time past they are part of a much bigger history and I feel that they deserve a little bit more than you have given them. After all Egyptians were some of the first to record their beliefs and history which alone defines civilization. As far as pointless and useless I don't believe they are or will be. Take for example the first few trips into space. It cost millions of dollars for one man to float around the earth for a few hours and then come back. Now there are people from every country living in space for months at a time. Imagine what will come from that 50 years from now. I implore you all to step back for a moment and actually reread your comments because although you are right the arguments you are making shouldn't be about where the money goes because in the long run you are all looking towards a better future. Be it through technology or societal reform all three of you want a better place for our future fellows to live.

Anony-mouse,

So what are you saying, that we should maintain fascist policies because some people are inferior? I thought the we beat that kind of thinking in WWII?

Meanwhile, what do you think causes drug abuse and bad behavior in poverty? Do little kids under said conditions long to be crackheads when they grow up, or Power Rangers? Maybe they have a "gentic program" that middle class people don't have, right?

Your logic equals fail.

Traveller,

I'm speaking of the Egyptian empire, it is long dead. What's left are its religious vanity projects. While people lived in stone age conditions great engineers build monuments to nothing.

It speaks to the leaders' contempt for the average person, and it rings a bell with me. We study history to avoid repetition. Clearly, it doesn't work for everyone though.

Space:

From what I know about physics, it's an impossible place. Not now, nor in a million years will we get far from Earth, thus Earth should be a focus.

I think though that people in the west have some weird mental illness which makes them hate others and dream about magical places and futures. The Egypt example is an ancient example translated to modern times.

I frequently wonder about the reasons we've never heard from aliens. Perhaps they're ok with reality and wouldn't waste the time. Maybe they focus on building their worlds which they'll never escape from either.

That would be smart.

Either way, the USA didn't contributed with any money, so the problem is still in your country, don't blame the CERN

Thealderian,

I'm not saying that capitalism is the best policy out there. Unfortunately, your social policy is also not uptopia. Growing up in poverty I have seen the kind of mindset that grows into children is more or less is "oh-woh-is-me, I've been poor all my life, I have nothing to live for, I might as well get hooked on narcs or alcohol" For years I tried to turn this pessimistic attitude around, showing them their is a life is they just make it for themselves. Now, however I concentrate only on those that willing to change.
As for the great engineers, without them your "inferior" people would have no jobs & live a much worse existence. I don't believe that anyone is "superior" to anyone else, but I do believe many poor people are unwilling to change their lives for the better. Hell, my own father bitched b/c I made double his salary after getting a B.S. degree. I'll tell you what I told him: If you don't like the situation you're in, then f'in change it. Very simple, fairly easy advice for everyone, not just poor people, to follow.

Adlerian,

"from what I know about geology, it's impossible for the Earth to be round" ~15th century man

"from what I know about astronomy, the Earth is most certainly the center of the universe" 17th c. man

"From what I know about physics, it's an impossible place. Not now, nor in a million years will we get far from Earth" you

"We study history to avoid repetition. Clearly, it doesn't work for everyone though."

Ad,

I was simply asking all of you to stop and realize that you guys are fighting for the same thing. Just in different ways.

I wasn't questioning the possibility of space travel or if we ever would. I was just being open-minded enough to believe/hope that we as a race haven't peaked and now it's all down hill from here.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion and since that seems to be yours I say duly noted and adieu.

Mouse,

"Unfortunately, your social policy is also not uptopia."

Utopia?

I'm talking about adequacy.

Meanwhile, you seem to have little or no idea about how society works. Johnny the Top Scientist can't do his work unless some near slave makes his paper and pencils, his pants, his shoes, his TV dinner, and so forth. All of that makes the lives of the supposed elite possible. It's what a civilization does, it creates a division of labor. Thus, the "lowest" worker is as important as the highest.

That is fact.

You should send a "Thank You" card to the people who clean your crap out of the sewer because you'd likely be dead without them.

Anon,

Poor thinking there.

There's a huge different between determining the shape of a planet, and knowing that traveling trillions of miles through a vacuum to destinations of unknown value is pointless and impossible due to speed and energy needs.

Note:

How the planet orbits is a human conception, no matter how you cut it.

Double Note:

A woman on the TV Show The View thinks that the Earth is flat. She's a highly paid TV star.

That's what thousands of years of research have born.

Traveller,

Do you think that the human race will only "peak" if it can engage in fantasy activity? If it can learn what might have happened at the beginning of time? If it find water on some dead planet?

How about it will peak when it becomes existentially aware? It will peak when it stops and realizes where it's at, what it's limitations are, and how it can make life good while we are alive.

We aren't even close to that.

TheAdlerian,

I really can not see how you think this is such a waste of money. Did you even read the article? Do you understand that this machine could solve many of the questions about how this whole universe was made? If it wasn't for science, we would be nowhere. Yes there are tons of poor in Philly, there are tons of poor people everywhere across the globe, but we will always have a poor class and there is not much you can do to help that. I myself have volunteered to clean the streets and build houses in New Orleans which is in a much worse condition than philly. Yes there are homeless everywhere but let me tell you this: The day we gave a house we had just built to a poor family for FREE, they walked in and then asked us to get off their property. They did not thank us, they did not appreciate it, they expected the work to be done for them. Thousands of poor people can not be saved with 20 billion dollars... If you think that this money could have helped the poor population, than you are the ignorant one my friend.

BTW the energy requirements your talking about is reaching the speed of light. It does not mean we can cheat. every heard of an Einstein-Rosenberg bridge? how about solar sails? or maybe ion engines. String theories problem is not that it cannot be proven, it's simply that it is difficult to prove, because we must discover several particles which can be discovered via this machine.

OH YEAH just to finish up
NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE
It is simply to complex for us to comprehend at this point of time. just as anon's quotes said, ppl said that no man could fly (wright brothers did otherwise)
I was also wondering TheAdlerian or Anony-mouse if EITHER OF U KNOW WHAT A HADRON IS?
cuz if u don't or if u don't know any of the mathematics behind what is trying to be found here u ought to stop wrangling @ each others throats , specially when u need at least 3 years of college level physics to even begin to learn quantum mechanics.

and before i forget, 1 comment about the poor which I learned from my dad. If you want to live content and not on the streets you're gonna have to work for it. I mean that if yur talking about the homeless( they should have a high school diploma, grunt jobs aren't 2 hard 2 find if so many immigrants are able 2 find em). if u mena poor as in lower class then have u considered if they are content with what they have? have you considered in this generation it costs next to nothing to have your kids go to school, and in these school students are learning mathematics and sciences that were never covered in High schools 20 years ago? Have you considered that instead of flaming some random person on their internet about where our world's money is going that you instead DO SOMETHING IN REAL LIFE ABOUT IT IF YOU CARE SO DAMN MUCH ABOUT IT?

I'm so glad some scientists "wasted" millions on developing a experimental digital communications network for their own and the millitary's gain, instead of spending those millions on "poor people." Thanks to that waste of money, we now have the Internet, which has allowed poor people from all over the world (like India, China, Korea, etc) to raise their standard of living and compete with the rest of the world. Maybe 40 years down the road the discoveries from this "wastefull" experiment will solve our energy or transportation problems, or chage our technologies in ways we can't even yet imagine? Either way, I'm sure the "poor" people will be better off still.

Lets do some math:
The LHC project took €3.2–6.4 billion or in American dollars its;
4.4-8.9 billion US dollars(In 2day's lower dollar value)
Now we divide that by the 85 countires that participated in building it we have on average an estimated 51.8-104.7 million dollars per country(Actual numbers is ($51,764,705.8-$104,705,882.4). Now lets take this and again divide it about the 12 years it took to build this we conclude that it took merely 4.3-8.6 million dollars a year per country to build this.

Make what you wish of these statistics, at least i looked for numbers

We need to spend all the money currently spent on poor people and fund it all into sciences. Those who can will, those who can't don't.

Responsibility to the responsible! People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and those that feel responsible need to stop feeling baseless guilt for people whom have ZERO to do with their lives and just want to be parasites and psychic vampires.

It isn't economics that render most poor people as being economically "oppressed." It's the fact that they're a mongrel lot, the inferior husk of humanity that should have been discarded of ages ago instead of being artificially sustained by devious, culturally & socio-economically deleterious agendas of the old elite that still believe in a class system of a few elites surrounded by a mass of thralls whereas the better ideal would be JUST elites.

You know, eugenics. You know, selective and responsible reproduction and use of resources. Life isn't sacred, quality lives are sacred.

Some of the people posting here are little more than automatons whom have been programmed by bleeding heart post-60's society into believing that "the poor count." Yeah, sure, but only insofar as they equal a cost for the brighter and more productive people of the world that don't get nearly as much as they could get due to the fact that we have to sustain way too much of their obese uselessness.

Stick the poor inside the LHC for all I fucking care.

I can't believe some nit-wit actually posted that we should be concerned about the green house gasses being pumped out by this project! What an Al Gore goonie! I hate Republicans and that kind of senseless New Age jibber-jabber makes me want to curl up with a Coulter book and DIE.

If anyone wants to waste their lives trying to feed those whom are obviously human failures, go be a success for them. Just remember that their only success will be because someone better, more able, more resourceful made the sacrifice (which isn't noble, it's just stupid). Personally, I'm tired of the able being made to sacrifice for people that aren't.

Have an entirely wretched day, thank you.

WTF???

Well, you guys ought to be proud.

The pursuit of nonsense science is supported by Neo-Nazis, people who don't understand the economics which support poverty, and those who can't make an analogy between useful inventions and useless ones.

Good job!

THEALDERIAN

You are obviously on the wrong website to be spitting defeatist jibber jabber and I agree with everyone here. I believe that there is something else in your life that has made you a very angry and pessimistic person. I advise you to seek help so you can become a happier person.

Gallows? wtf that's crazy, you crazy man!

Anon,

Executing middle class fantasy isn't defeatist, it's a public service my nameless friend. It is in fact people like you who have the mental illness.

[url]http://www.paleofuture.com/[/url]

This blog illustrates how much money and time people have been dumping into pointless dreams for over a hundred years.

The mental illness comes from living a life like some WoW player who imagines himself a level 80 Wizard, while he gets fat and has never talked to a girl. Here and now is the best focus.

Meanwhile, dvice has many amusing stories about useful and ridiculous products, so I'll read it and comment if I like. No need to whip out the fascism.

okay, most will never understand the scope of what these guys are doing, ever. so lets break this down to money which most will never understand either but lets give it a shot, if 20 billion was spent and counting, people who have this kind of money are not just throwing it away, they have got to be expecting a pay back, the doors that are going to be smashed down with the knowledge gained will make/change history, and the money made from the things that will be invented are incalcuable, But profit doesnt matter when looking at the big picture, this thing is going to be huge in the way the next generations will live thier lives. It will shape the future of pretty much everything, and reshape history of most things. Study anything about Quantum mechanics and not be truly amazed, then try to understand it. Instead of alway focusing on the negative or living in constant fear, Fear of what you dont know, expecting hand outs, blaming others for your short comings, have some vision, open your minds and quit bitching, get a job, live and let live. Evole, grow, elevate yourself without stepping on someones face, take responsibilty. Big Risk, big reward. or live in fear, run and hide, be afraid, because the world is flat, and remember when you drown a witch and they live they are guilty and if they die their not guilty. Earth is the center of the universe, the sun rotates around it. BLah BLah BLah

Gallows
"I can't believe some nit-wit actually posted that we should be concerned about the green house gasses being pumped out by this project! What an Al Gore goonie! I hate Republicans and that kind of senseless New Age jibber-jabber makes me want to curl up with a Coulter book and DIE."

Al-Gore is a Democrat... but if you want to die i really don't have a problem with that...your choice. And its Democrats who are all gun-ho about the environment. Remember Republicans are the oil mongrels, they WANT you to keep using fossil fuel (which by burning, releases gasses that are bad for the environment) I'm having to be this specific cause apparently u are as smart as a rock...

"black holes (no way, they'd be too small and unstable to do any harm)"
The smaller the black hole, the more radiation.
And add to that the fact that we have very little knowledge of black holes, so who knows how multiple black holes could affect a celestial body like the Earth.

Helll,

Please give explaining the "scope" a try.

Craysh, How does a small black hole give of more radiation, if black holes current radiation lv(IE hawking radiation) is below the background radiation.. hell theorertically based on Hawkings work the smaller the black hole the more short lived it would be.
Quantum sized black hole= 'instant death' (in regards to the BH not us)

JB, I think that what gallows meant is that sum nitwit asked how much CO2 emission the LHC would produce, when it runs of electricity...

-456.25F?
Isn't 0F the lowest possible temperature? Tell me if I'm wrong..

boygenius,
I get that but to bring politics into this amazing scientific achievement is just stupid... plus his comment was wrong. If hes going to whine at least have a comment that is a fact and not call Al-gore a republican...that was just stupid

0F is not the lowest possible temperature, seeing as how Antarctica is below that at all times. And I'm pretty sure parts of northern Canada and Alaska get that cold as well. The lowest temperature is about −459.67F, so yes, Germstorm, you're wrong

Okay, okay, Do you have to do it just because everyone else does? I don't think it's good math to say that something "10 times less pressure than you'd find on the moon." What's so difficult about "one-tenth the pressure you'd find on the moon?"

Why are we building this shit and not trying to build a ship of some type for space exploration?

black holes that small can only give off radiation equal to their mass. If this created any black hole its event horizon would be billions of times smaller than an atom because of it's mass. If the earth were a black hole the event horizon would only be about the size of a pea. Just because there's a black hole doesn't change the amount of gravity, just how its density. And because of the hawking radiation it would not exist long enough to gain any mass from an outside source.
Anyone whining about the homeless needs to shut up and do something about it. Most of them don't want to do anything. If they want a better life they will help themselves. Those are the only homeless who will get out.
The LHC is not a waste of money, it is money well spent. It will help unlock secrets of the universe that will advance future generations beyond our imagination. Money is already being spent of space exploration. More is needed, however I don't think spending more money will help that much. We need a new type of space vehicle other than chemical rickets. Otherwise, we will almost never leave the solar system.

I would like to apologize. Thank you Macenriley.
I live in Europe, we use Celsius as temperature measurement and I knew that some other measurement uses 0 as the lowest possible temp. Turns out it is the Kelvin, not the Fahrenheit.

lol comment flame war. Go outside for two seconds, or you'll turn translucent... geez.....

I wonder it theres is room in 16.7 miles of tunnel for all the crap on this page?!!!...

Both sides of this argument have good points to make, but in the end it is useless as the money has been spent already and the thing is already doing its job. So this whole arguments amounts to nothing but entertainment for the many people who read it and laugh at the stupidity of you people.

all of you should shut the fuck up and stick to the actual issue, if you dont like the fact that some rich fucks got together and built this thing, theres not a damn thing whining about it on the internet is gonna do.
now id like to complain just a bit on the sixth point: string theory (or 'super string theory') and m theory dont theorize that molecules and atoms are actually vibrating strings, it theorizes that molecules and atoms are made up of trillions of billions of tiny vibrating strings. essentially - its smaller than the smallest part of an atom.
and also, boygenius left a comment stating that several particles must be discovered to prove string theory. now i thought the only particle that needed to be discovered was the graviton, which (from my understanding) they had been trying to discover with a super collider in america by repeatedly smashing two hydrogen atoms together with the hope that one of them would contain a molecule that completely disappears, slipping through an invisible layer of space (which would actually only prove m theory, not any of the other versions of string theory)
now ive done my research but i havent studied in full precise detail and also its been a while since i read up on quantum mechanics, so i could be wrong; both about stating that the only particle needing to be discovered being the graviton AND about the process of attempting to discover a graviton itself, but if i am - give me a break. i dont have a degree in theoretical physics.

Here is a bit of information for those of you who are interested in the issues of economics raised here. The United States of America has a private banking system called the "Federal Reserve". This system allows banks to lend nine times their deposits. This is how new money is created and put into the system. Imagine how rich you could become if you could do that. The big problem in this system is that that the money to pay the interest on the loans is only created by more loans. This is the equivalent of a black hole. The more interest owed the more loans needed the more interest owed until the banks own everything.
If we did not have such a parasitic system, there would not be so many poor people. The poor that did exist would not be a huge burden.

It is paying us back The World Wide Web was a by product.The people working to build and maintane the Ring get paid to.

Germstorm - To add to that answer about degrees. What is referred to as absolute 0 is the temperature reached when all molecular motion has stopped. There will always be some motion due to Quantum Mechanical Effects. At least until we get a lot better at physics.

NASA has over 6,300 patents for technology as a result of the space program. any of is useful? Pacemakers. Better nutrition, planetary imaging led to enzyme screening, GPS, telecommunications and weather satellites, fuel cells, etc... without some those satellites we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Google Spinoff magazine from the NASA site for details. http://www.nasa.gov/topics/nasalife/index.html the click the city on the right.

When referring to CO2 cost. I believe the gentleman/lady is referring to the CO2 emitted in building the thing, i.e. the machines used, the materials created, event he current electricity may or may not be all from clean sources. It could come from oil or coal plants. Over 20 years it adds up to quote a bit.

Personal opinions: Our education system needs serious revamping.

fellow commenter posters, you can't argue with TheAdlerian. people like this are grossly naive, shallow, and stubborn. give up. you're wasting your time.

fellow commenter posters, you can't argue with TheAdlerian. people like this are grossly naive, shallow, and stubborn. give up. you're wasting your time.

#1: they discover a cure for retards. At least this thread would be more interesting